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FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic People

Discussion in 'Social Issues' started by Green Tea, Jun 2, 2007.

  1. Green Tea

    Green Tea Tequila Mockinbird

  2. m@rk

    m@rk B.T.O.

    Re: FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic Pe

    { sound of hands clapping }

  3. Monty

    Monty Well-Known Member

    Re: FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic Pe

    Ah, this old chestnut once again. Thankyou Private Ale, for the opportunity to dust off one of my own:

    Posted 2007/6/2 on Filecabi.net forum by Montysdouble:
    Pasted verbatim:

    The War on Terror, let's look at that concept first. For terrorism to work, it must inspire fear and then that fear must lead to the victims' group capitulating to the terrorists' demands. Couple of problems here: I'm not scared. September 11th was a massive, tragic event but in the scale of Deadly Things To Be Scared Of, it doesn't even rate. You're far more likely to be killed in a car crash--ask any actuary. Granted, there's a fundamenal difference in that terrorism is a deliberate act; but so is any murder. Now, what are the vast majority of murders? Domestic violence. But victims of terrorism such as September 11 are chosen randomly from a 'target group'... so are the victims of a shooting rampage.

    Second, where are Al Qaeda's demands? Just what do Laden's Loonies want? Oh yeah--the establishment of a World Caliphate. It ain't gonna happen. Or do they hate America? Is it American citizens they hate or is it the actions of the American government over the years on the world stage? I'll wager the latter. I detest some of the things my own Australian government has, is and will do but to kill fellow Australians because of it doesn't make sense. Even political assassination won't work: Kill one polly and you make a martyr of him and strengthen the resolve of his own faction.

    The War on Terror has been known as such since 2001/9/11 but has been going on for much longer. To call it a War is to dignify Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups with a status they do not deserve: Al Qaeda, Jemaah Islamiah, Islamic Jihad... are all Muslims, but all Muslims are not terrorists and should not be tarred with the same "You're either with us or against us" brush. I don't care what it says in the Koran about jihad, but I don't see any Australian Muslims getting up and waving their fists in the air apart from the usual suspects: Angry, gullible young men and Imams like Al Hilali that should know better. These form a small, vocal, visible minority that is all too often the only facet of Australian Islam shown by mainstream media. This basically constitutes propaganda: Like in 1930's Germany, if you put up enough posters of abhorrently, racistly stereotypical Jewish money lenders then people start to think they're all like that.

    As the NJ housewife pointed out, the conduct of terrorists is not that of a soldier. On this point I agree with her. Hiding in Mosques, Refugee camps or otherwise among civilians is abhorrent. A soldier going without a uniform is specifically prohibited by the Geneva Convention article 37, 1 (1977). A concealed bomb belt doesn't constitute a uniform, nor does carrying a Kalashnikov. Given that coalition soldiers are facing enemies among and usually unidistinguishable from civilians until they fire it is small wonder that incidents like the http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/18/AR2006081801366_pf.html"]Haditha killings[/URL] occur. Indeed, that sort of atrocity becomes almost inevitable when you take young men trained to obey orders and be good with weapons and drop them into the crazy, psychotic quagmire that Iraq has now become. This is why the GC also prohibits using civilians as shields, effectively banning warfare in population centers... like that will ever happen. :(

    The whole idea of waging a war against terrorists is just wrongheaded. They are a criminal, deluded fringe that should be universally ostracised from Islamic society. That in many parts of the world they are not so shunned is a sad testament to the conditions many people are forced to live in, and to the fear that terrorists inspire among "fellow" Muslims: "We're setting up a sniper nest in the empty flat upstairs. If I see any of you dogs trying to leave you're dead." Thus is a tenement of civilians transformed into a pit of vipers that must be crushed. Sending soldiers to do what, ideally, should be a police task is an easy decision to take when terrorists arm themselves as soldiers. But in the absence of law and order when the lunatics have taken over the asylum what can you do?

    It's almost hopelessly idealistic of me, but I still think using armies to root out terrorists is wrong, and can't work without creating so much civilian carnage that by the 'end' as many want to take up arms until the blood debts are all settled as are relieved the shooting has stopped. My stance is sorely tested by the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6676291.stm"]current situation [/URL]in the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp.

    That's it right there Jon. Money, power, oil or land... whatever the reasons wars start, religion isn't the root cause with this one but the justification- that's what I'm saying. It's a neat way of shouting down church or mosque-going doves on your own side by saying "do you want godless abortion-performing Yankees putting up Hustler billboards in Kandahar?" or "do you want heathen ragreads coming here and being polygamists with all our women?".

    Also, spot on Snuff. I was appalled in 2003 when Bush (or it was probably spokesman Ari Fleischer (sp?)) specifically stated that only coalition countries' corporations would be participating in rebuilding Iraq. September 11 provided a perfect justification of the moment for invading Afghanistan. I'm pretty ambivalent of the Afghani invasion--yeah, sure, get rid of the Taliban but don't be all high and mighty about it or pretend for one second that Afghanistan was anything but a cold war pawn for the ten years prior to the Taliban taking over.

    It's important to take a longer view of things: Invading Iraq was a severe mistake falsely justified by bullshit reasons--but is the sad result of decades of US collaboration and business dealings with the Ba'ath regime right up until the late '80s, not only ignoring their crimes but actively helping not only with all the oil money but also with such goodies as chemical weapons. Afghanistan was a canker on the ass of the Soviets, especially when Bin Laden's CIA supplied stingers started shooting down hinds by the dozen. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Sucessive US administrations would have done better to remember this, and forget mine enemies enemy is my friend. Sure, send in the troops now to get rid of the Taliban, but didn't the CIA perhaps have an eensy-weensy little clue in the early '80s that Bin Laden was not their ally but a nutjob, and they created a monster for a nasty little proxy conflict with the reds.

    The NJ housewife's attitude towards sacrilege is hypocritical, unproductive and displays a schoolyard mentality: "You desecrate our bible and we'll desecrate your Koran. I'll stop it when you do. You go first."

    As for how I feel about Muslims: Notwithstanding the large misogynist element within Islam I'm just fine with Muslims, thanks very much. They can do as they like, blare out the muezzin's call to prayer at 110dB as long as it's not too early and fast during Ramadan. If they or anyone don't act in a civil manner that's another story, to which religion is a regrettably conflated subplot. Religion, like gunpowder, the jet engine, plastic explosive and the nuclear reactor, is neither good nor evil but a tool. These tools become deadly in the hands of the Socially Darwinistic; the Alpha types whose allegiance is with their own little subset of humanity; who would see the world under their own 'peoples'' hegemony and who don't realise the supreme irony of fighting other people is that the logical conclusion of 'success' is genocide. Over what? Petty cultural differences!? It's pathetic.
  4. Monty

    Monty Well-Known Member

    Re: FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic Pe

    I will deconstruct the New Jersey Housewife's thesis soon.

    I welcome similar deconstruction of my own rant- Bring it on. ;)
  5. SurfSarge

    SurfSarge misfit

    Re: FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic Pe

    LoL Monty! ;D
  6. Monty

    Monty Well-Known Member

    Re: FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic Pe

    It was not. The war on terror cannot be separated from the historical and ongoing quasi-imperial actions of very dubious morality carried out on the world stage by the US government. The September Eleven attacks can therefore be seen as blowback against more than fifty years of meddling and taking sides in the Middle East. The War Against Terror is blowback against the blowback, the risk being descent into an eye for an eye ad infinitum, as illustrated in an old signature of mine:

    [img width=600 height=137]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/Zippozeppo/Gotyoulast.jpg[/img]

    Yes. For what it's worth, most of the deaths were probaby relatively quick and painless.

    I find myself more disturbed at the thought of the hijackers killing people with box cutters: That can't be an easy death. As with anything, the devil is in the details. In respect of non-sadistic methods of killing the US armed forces reign supreme. What greater mercy than an unseen, unheard hellfire missile providing sweet oblivion? Perhaps in future, when targetting a single individual for extreme prejudice it would be advisable to use enough hellfires to instantly kill the entire wedding party, so as not to leave any to suffer without the benefit of modern medecine and prosthetic limbs that cost half a lifetime's wages.

    Nobody is asking you to care.

    I assume Bin Laden would not turn himself in to face legal consequences because he doesn't believe in American justice. Given extraordinary rendition, I don't blame him.

    You'll start to care about the Koran when they start to care about the Bible. Excellent! We have someething to work with: Everyone: In three, two, one and... Care! Damn, somebody in Kandahar missed the cue, and has burned a Bible: It looks like you can safely and self-righteously return to your intolerance, New Jersey Housewife.

    Thugs, insurgents, zealots: They are not all of Islam. I visit a USA prison: By your standard of logic, I conclude the every US citizen is a violent drug dealer or fraudster.

    Suicide bombing Jihadis do not seek Nirvana: That is a Buddhist concept, literally a state of 'no wind' and peace. They seek to kill, to further their idea of holy war, and to earn their place in paradise. The fact is that to become nihilistic automata these men must first be indoctrinated, inculcated with hatred and manipulated in a controlled enironment. An essential first step is to remove a new recruit from the gracious presence of the love of women, family and friends.

    Every time a young Palestinian boy helps to pick up body parts, every time a frustrated intellectual despairs at the general blindness to economic injustice on a scale far too large to be taken in, every time one is sickened at the latest atrocity that is a little prod that the already disturbed mind will gladly accept, taking another step away from sanity towards entertaining violence.

    I don't care for your callousnes New Jersey Housewife. I do care- equally for all. Over three thousand young Americans have spent their lives in support of the fundamentally flawed concept that overwhelming might imposing order upon chaos is actually a good thing. The folly of this approach is already apparent: It is not physically possble to secure an entire country. Therefore, peace for citizens must be assured by ensuring the happiness and enfranchisement of various groups- while not pandering to individual groups' divisive self-interest.

    Foreign jihadis: Go home, all of you- every single one. Iraq is none of your business Jarhead, it's none of your business Madrassa student. Unfortunately, the practicality of what would really happen if Iraq were to be magically swept of foreign fighters is probably akin to 1990s Yugoslavia. For this reason and this reason alone: Support Iraqi troops by supporting our own.

    A descent into mindless, goodthinkful rhetoric. I reject the putative offer of sacrifice in my name by an American GI, and would even if I were a US citizen. Additionally, the juxtaposition of Jesus' sacrifice here beggars belief: Temporal safety is not spiritual enlightenment.

    If that is the New Jersey Housewife's best attempt at subtle mind-manipulation then I reckon that less than a simple majority would be swayed by her thesis- then again, I am a hidebound optimist regarding the intellect of others.

  7. SurfSarge

    SurfSarge misfit

    Re: FW: New Jersey Housewife Sums Up How Most of us Really Feel About Islamic Pe

    damn you did own that bitch! ;D